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"That's the reality that nobody knows. And nobody wants to know."

Interview with Sergey Lagodinsky

 

Sergey Lagodinsky runs the Europe desk for the Heinrich Boll Stiftung.

 

Daniel Miller: You are an expert in the sociology of immigration?

 

Sergey Lagodinsky: It is more my practical side. My field of expertise is in applied politics of diversity and foreign policy, and constitutional law and international law.

 

DM: What is the status of the Jewish relation in Germany?

 

SG: Politicians talk a lot about the renaissance of Jewish life here. It is a message, which is primarily addressed to Germans, concerned with the ritual of rehabilitation, and the project to become a ''normal'' culture and ''normal'' nation. It's not a project of the Jewish people. It is a more a German thing. Which I understand. And think is nice. That we're doing something good for our host society, and for their feelings. But I don't see this as our project...

 

DM: Would you say Germany thirsts for normality?

 

SL: I am not a psychoanalyst. I think the question is... is Germany ready to change into something else? Do we have enough power within us, and enough discipline, enough vision...

 

DM: Enough will?

 

SL: I'm not sure it's a question of will... it's a question of restraint, self-restraint, not to do become something that we don't want to become, if we part ways with this part of us which is bothering us...

 

DM: You mean the ''criminal'' identity created in the aftermath of the Second World War?

 

SL: I wouldn't call it criminal...

 

DM: I am thinking of the denazification project that started after 1945. A reunification project then began after 1989. Perhaps this project has not yet been completed...

 

SL: Of course not...

 

DM: Because it is not only political, but spiritual...

 

SL: Of course, a historical change of this magnitude is a chance for a nation to reinvent itself. Germany is strong. It has a strong economy, it is strong politically. But it is not about strength, it is about how you apply it. I think that humility is something which made the FDR strong....

 

DM: There is also an arrogance in Germany...

 

SL: Yes... in terms of, we learned our lesson. We have gone through a process and reworked the past... it made us morally better, and by that we have a moral right to tell others how things should be run. So we can teach other nations how best to do transformative justice. We have a rule of law, and an obedience to legal concepts, and we want there to be an international legal order, which would be like the Federal German Court, but on the international level, and everybody would have to obey. And this is a way of seeing the world through the prism of our German glasses... again. And I think part of it is thinking that we've been there, we've dealt with it, and now we are... pure.

 

DM: Let's think more about German identity and Jewish identity. One dimension is the people who were killed, and who are ghosts, and whose function is to serve as sacrificial victims. But perhaps there is a another level...

 

SL: Well, for the past twenty years, Germany has a program of bringing former Soviet Jews to Germany. It was a program that they took over from the GDR, which started the program, for Soviet refugees, as they called them, who wanted to stay here. The Jewish community which exists here is a result of this program...

 

DM: Could you come as a Moroccan Jew?

 

SL: No, you had to be from the former Soviet Union. You need to appreciate the historical context. In the late eighties you had this situation where was this massive influx of Soviet Jews to East Berlin, who were escaping from the situation in the crumbling USSR. So the DDR was suddenly confronted by the fact that there were hundreds of Soviet Jews in Berlin, who don't have a status, and nobody knows how to deal with them. So they institutionalized a program for these people to give them a status. When it came to reunification there were lobbies and requests to continue this program. The alternative was not to broaden it to all Jews in the world. The alternatives were to stop this, or continue it. So they continued it...

 

Judyta Nekanda-Trepka: But it is ironic that these are the Soviet Jews who were not affected by the Holocaust...

 

SL: Well... this is not true. Perhaps it is true on the level of individual self-understanding; there are Jews who identify more with the victims, and Jews for whom the experience of fighting with the Red Army, and actively contributing to defeating Nazism is more important. But it is not true on the level of historical fact. Soviet Jews, just as much as German Jews, were affected by the holocaust. They were differently affected. They were largely not brought to ghettos, or to concentration camps... they were just shot dead at the outskirts of every town that the Germans took over. So it's wrong to say that the Soviet Jews were not affected, and it is a bad interpretation of history...

 

DM: Do you think that there is now a possibility of engaging in a new discussion about the relationship between Germans and Jews?

 

SL: I think we have a chance for a dialogue, and a chance to reframe the relationship. We should not be victimizing ourselves all the time. We should not stay as the objects of this dialogue, and should become the actors, subjects. And this comes from the understanding that we were also actors in the holocaust context, as fighters, which is the understanding that comes from Russian Jews, from Soviet Jews, and their grandparents. With this I can agree.

 

DM: To what extent is Jewish/German dialogue still about the Holocaust?

 

SL: It's not about the holocaust, but it is against the background of the holocaust. You cannot ignore the fact we are debating in a void. And this is why I don't like this idea about returning... or the continuity of Jewish life. These are totally different Jews, this is a totally different generation. You cannot substitute the old people with new people. If you wipe out from your population an entire generation, you cannot expect continuation.

 

DM: There is no continuation... but who said that?

 

SL: There is a lot of talk... an expectation about Jewish life here. And there is a lot of expectation pressure on the people who arrive here. And if they don't fit the bill... if the people who come look more Russian then they expect Jews to look like...

 

DM: The Germans are imagining an ideal Jew?

 

SL: I wouldn't talk about the Germans... I would say, there is this expectation... and this expectation comes, of course, from a lack of continuous everyday experience with Jews. If you learn about the Jews at school, mostly through history and historical images, then you construct a certain image of the Jew. And so when you are confronted by this reality, by Russian Jews who look, not are, but look, more Russian than Jewish, then your initial reaction is: ''What the hell?''

 

DM: Who are these Russians?

 

SL: Who are these Russians? They are not Jewish! So there is this situation of an expectation mismatch. What is ironic is I never called myself Russian in Russia. My nationality was Jewish. It said this in my passport, whereas for the ethnically Russian, it said they were Russian. So I would never say in Russia: ''Ja Ruskie.'' There is a certain different way of staying it... I am a Russioner... But Ruskie, I am not. And it took some time, when we came to Germany, to become Russians, to be able to say: ''Ich bin Russer.'' And this is something now I say. And people think that I am Russian. And it hard to explain to them something you used to believe, and actually has in some truth in it: That you are not Russian. Not in terms of your roots, or in terms of your cultural background, or in terms of your herkunft. People say: ''You are a Slavic person.'' But I am not a Slavic person! Look at me! Do I look Slavic to you? And then people say, well, I don't know what Slavs look like...

 

JNT: But you were invited here as a Jew...

 

SL: I came to Germany as Jewish, yes. But I don't understand... what is that you think that we Russian Jews get here?

 

JNT: I have only heard stories...

 

SL: The only privilege that Russian Jews had here, as compared to other groups is the access to Germany, the right to come here. Because Germany is not an immigration country. But once you are here in Germany, you are treated like any other refugee. Obviously, in some cities, the Jewish communities were more active then in other cities, but I never experienced any better treatment then Yugoslav refugees who came here, or Turkish, or whatever....

 

DM: But you have a German passport, whereas many of them don't...

 

SL: After six years... I applied, and I had to go through this process like anyone else. I think maybe it is a little bit shorter... one year shorter...

 

DM: If you are Jewish, you can get a passport one year earlier?!?

 

SL: I... am not completely sure. But there are different levels of discussion here. From a formal perspective. Soviet Jews were allowed to come here, as recognized refugees. From the informal perspectives, there are people who tell me stories that they were treated in the Welfare Offices much worse once people found out they were Jewish. And of course there are stories of other situations which were nicer. I know that when we came, the welfare officer, was much more forthcoming to the Russian Germans who came then she was to the Jews. And she admitted this openly. When we asked her for blankets and pillows, she said, well, you go to a store and you buy them. Of course, we didn't have money. But the assumption was – and she said this to a person we know – don't worry about the Jewish immigrants, they will take care of themselves. Take care of the Russian Germans. She was from Poland, by the way.

 

DM: Are Jews required by Germans for some kind of ritual purpose?

 

SL: Yes, but rituals are part of society. This is normal. The problem is when you basically brush aside the reality of the people whom you, at the same time, sanctify as victims. You talk about Jews, and you elevate the dialogue with Jews to a very high level of political symbolism, but at the same time you don't even know who these Jews are who living around the corner...

 

DM: And you don't care...

 

SL: And this is one of the things that I've been fighting for years. I was the head of the Integration Committee of the Jewish Parliament in Berlin. So I've really spent some time dealing with all of these crying people who were professors, or were doctors, or were engineers in the Soviet Union. And of course they can not expect to be at the same level here... but it is a problem. The fact is that very little was done for the individual Jews that came here. There was very little understanding of the specific problems of this specific group. There is massive poverty among older Jewish immigrants, most of whom are recognized as holocaust survivors. And they live from social welfare, they are being treated by social welfare offices, often not in a nice way, and nobody really gives a damn. Everybody goes out on November 9. Everybody celebrates together, side by side, and then the politicians go into their black cars, and our older people go to the Sozialamt. That's the reality that nobody knows. And nobody wants to know, because it doesn't fulfill these ritual purposes, and it doesn't relieve you from whatever feeling you want to get rid of it.

 

DM: What do you make of it?

 

SL: It's understandable. In politics you always have symbolic roles and parts. But what I find problematic when these symbolic gestures or ritual gestures are not accompanied by a real sincere or humanistic interest towards individuals. Apart from having this symbolic dimension, you also have to pay attention to the human dimension, and the people who were, and are affected. You cannot raise expectations and let them fall through the holes. You bring Jews to this country, and you celebrate Jewish life here, but this does not bring dignity to the Jews that you bring. If you invite a community of immigrants, then you have to think through the composition of that community, and the condition of their life-stories, and not forget this, and brush it off, just because you are so focussed on the political message that you are sending...

 

DM: What does the existence of this Jewish population say, or means, for the identity of Germany, in the context of the German Reunification Project?

 

SL: It's definitely... a kind of missing part of becoming normal. And that's why I think it's probably the same in Poland. A desire in cultivating Jewish customs or institutions a Jewish way of life. To show we are a normal country. It is something to do with having Jews around means becoming normal again...

 

DM: But Jews aren't normal.

 

SL: On that point I can agree.

 

DM: They are the living proof that things aren't normal.

 

SL: And that is why you don't want them too close.

 

This interview was conducted on March 17, 2012 by Daniel Miller and Judyta Nekanda-Trepka, and transcribed and edited by Daniel Miller.

AND EUROPE WILL BE STUNNED – ein Kongress von JRMiP und Yael Bartana

Das „Jewish Renaissance Movement in Poland (JRMiP)” fordert die Rückkehr von 3.300.000 Juden nach Polen, um die dort nahezu ausgelöschte jüdische Gemeinschaft wiederherzustellen. [...]Mehr >

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